Idaho Gun Talk

Shooting Sports - Shooting and Competitions => 3 Gun Shooting => The Rifle => Topic started by: Birddog6424 on May 28, 2013, 02:12:38 PM

Title: What do you guys think of this rifle??
Post by: Birddog6424 on May 28, 2013, 02:12:38 PM
What I am trying to avoid is spending a bunch of money (as in too much) on Shirley's AR like I did on my Daniel Defense.

Been surfing and boning up on everything I could on how to build a gun, and what it would cost, etc. We know we want a nice round forend of at least 12 inches, not a tactical quad rail. We want a compensator of good quality and we want a trigger of good quality. Mil spec won't fly. And we want a flat top. No A2 front site post.

I have narrowed it down to building one, which would work out to about $1300 (that's with the $700 PWS upper from Hawktech, along with a built lower including a Geissele SD3G). Or seeing if Dan can get me this one linked below. You seem to hear from people who don't like DPMS, then there seems to be a legion of people who love them. I know they are a budget gun, but this weapon is very well set up for the money. JP single stage trigger, Miculek comp, Vtac rail, etc. Good price.

http://www.dpmsinc.com/3G1-223556_ep_120-1.html (http://www.dpmsinc.com/3G1-223556_ep_120-1.html)

Anyone have thoughts they would like to share? I am interested in hearing them.

Title: Re: What do you guys think of this rifle??
Post by: praetorian97 on May 28, 2013, 03:04:03 PM
This is exactly why I give people the stink eye when they say  "Oh you should get your GF out and shoot"

I have enough trouble affording one shooter in the family  ;D

IMO DPMS makes a GREAT entry level gun. Wyndham Armory (Old Bushmaster) makes a decent entry level for a good price as well.
Title: Re: What do you guys think of this rifle??
Post by: J Mack on May 28, 2013, 03:18:17 PM
DPMS makes a great rifle.
Title: Re: What do you guys think of this rifle??
Post by: Birddog6424 on May 28, 2013, 04:18:53 PM
This is exactly why I give people the stink eye when they say  "Oh you should get your GF out and shoot"

I have enough trouble affording one shooter in the family  ;D

IMO DPMS makes a GREAT entry level gun. Wyndham Armory (Old Bushmaster) makes a decent entry level for a good price as well.

Luckily Shirley can pretty much hold her own at being able to afford to shoot. Our pockets aren't bottomless, but once we get past the significant expense of getting geared up for the sport, we'll be able to dive in and hit plenty of events.

We have looked at multitudes of good entry level guns, including Windham. But they would require some tinkering and added expense to get them up to speed. Such as new rail, compensator, trigger group, etc. Even with a $900 base level rifle, I am looking at $600 to get it up to speed (new gas block, forend, trigger group, comp). So the build or the DPMS 3G1 come it at a better deal than those.

DPMS makes a great rifle.

You have either completely blown your reputation as a gun snob, or DPMS makes a great rifle   ;D

They also make this gun in the .308. Which is a solid frontrunner in my hunt for a .308 for HM 3 Gun. I've seen this going for as low as $1422 out the door. And it is completely ready for competition. Magpul stock, JP trigger, Miculek compensator, 18" Hbar, VTac free float rail, Hogue grips...
Title: Re: What do you guys think of this rifle??
Post by: Jaggy13 on May 28, 2013, 04:34:13 PM
That doesn't look like a bad rifle at all.
But....

If you really want my honest opinion, I say build one. It won't cost you much more if at all. (I understand you are looking at $1300 with Dan's upper. but it doesn't even have to cost that much.)
but some things to consider about a 3 gun rifle. I would choose a different barrel and hand guard (half the price of that upper) and the comp is really shooter dependent. I think I was Brian that bought a Stag 3g and ended up changing the comp.
For me (which this rifle is not for) I would want flutes or a thinner taper on the barrel, a light weight gas block and a 15" hand guard.
Anything you touch your barrel to will change your POI.
The Stag 3G is pretty impressive for the price point. or maybe it just fits my idea of a 3 gun rifle a little better. but nothing beats building a purpose built rifle.
That's my honest opinion though. I'm fairly critical of a factory gun. If it has anything you plan on replacing then you should factor that into the cost of the rifle and compare apples to apples. That being said, if DPMS asked me to run that rifle I'm sure I could figure out a way to make it work...
Title: Re: What do you guys think of this rifle??
Post by: EKuo on May 28, 2013, 04:46:26 PM
When you say "build one", do you mean assemble one from parts or mate a pre-built upper with a pre-built lower? 

Personally I like putting them together one part at a time because that way I can be selective about what components I want on the rifle and don't end up with a bunch of take-offs.  Many of us have all the tools you would need to assemble an upper and lower from parts (it ain't rocket science).  As far as which brand barrel, comp, BCG, hand guard, upper and lower receiver, trigger, scope mount, yaddy yaddy yaddy... that could take a while. 

My $0.02 cents: 

Any milspec upper and lower receiver will do just fine as long as the holes are in the right spot and dimension. 

Barrel:  for 3-gun, I'm kind of biased towards the 18" 1:8 twist.  Good for the 55 gr pills all the way up to 77 gr bullets.  If I had to rebuild mine I would go with a lighter profile barrel (.936" under the gas block is a PITA both weight wise and range of gas blocks available).  .750" is pretty common and easy to find parts for.   

Gas system:  rifle length gas system is probably the softest recoiling, and hey guess what?  18" barrels are typically set up for rifle length gas!

Chamber:  5.56 NATO gives you the option to run mil surplus ammo or .223.  Or go with a barrel chambered in .223 Wylde and you can do the same.  Personally I don't think I've shot any mil surplus ammo thru my gun, or even factory.  Just hand loaded rounds, but ya never know. 

Trigger:  Yeah, I can agree with getting something other than milspec.  Everyone has their fav.  Go with one you (or Shirley) likes.  Probably find a wide range at our matches to try. 

Handguard:  Agree on the FF tube without the quad rails.  I ran a 12" JP/VTac for a while.  Got tired of burning my finger tips on the exposed gas block, so went with a 15" FF that HawkTech was promoting.  Gained 3" and lost 4 oz of weight.  Gotta like that. 

Comp:  Started with a Bennie Cooley comp, was OK, but then tried a PWS FCS comp.  Much prefer the PWS.  But other people will say the exact opposite.  I guess the moral of the story is you just have to keep trying them to see which one you/she likes. 

BCG:  I went with a FailZero for the fancy-pants coating they use.  Not really sure it was needed for reliability, but then again I've had very little problems (if any) that are attributed to the BCG.  However, park'd milspec BCGs seem to be priced at what I paid for the Fail Zero these days... so maybe you ought to just get whatever you can find! 

Scope mount:  I think this is one of those areas that you pay for what you get.  Step 1:  get the scope.  Step 2:  get the right mount for the dia of the tube and eye relief needed. 

Buttstock and grip:  get whatever is comfortable and fits.  That pretty much precludes the A2 grip that comes with most Lower Parts Kits...   Magpul stuff is nice, but they aren't the only ones out there. 

 
     
Title: Re: What do you guys think of this rifle??
Post by: RGinIdaho on May 28, 2013, 08:05:08 PM
I'm also of the build your own mindset.

put your effort/cash into the barrel, trigger and optic
Title: Re: What do you guys think of this rifle??
Post by: Silverbullet555 on May 28, 2013, 08:50:12 PM
Add me to the build your own camp. It's easy to do and allows you to pic all the parts you want. You may spend a little more, but you will only buy (cry) once.
Title: Re: What do you guys think of this rifle??
Post by: Birddog6424 on May 28, 2013, 08:55:49 PM
Appreciate the input fellas.

Leaning heavily towards a build. Just thinking a forged 7075 stripped lower with an Magpul MoE stock, and regular lower components, but with a Geissele SD trigger. Should be able to bring that in around $500.

Then either  the PWS complete upper from Hawktech, or an upper build consisting of a low profile 16" Daniel Defense barrel with a nice slim 13 or 14" round forend. I got to take a good look at the one Dan built for the little woman, and it's fantastic! Perfect 3 Gun for a gal. Or anyone who wants a nice lightweight weapon for that matter. It's lightweight and nimble as all get out.

Still really liking the DPMS in the .308. But need to get this 5.56 squared away first.
Title: Re: What do you guys think of this rifle??
Post by: Luvmy45 on May 29, 2013, 02:43:50 PM
Prebuilt guns for 3 gun, that are ready to rock and roll, just add optic.

Stag 3G

ColtProModelCRB-16 is an option,

DPMS that you found



Title: Re: What do you guys think of this rifle??
Post by: ID#5 on May 29, 2013, 03:05:11 PM
Not to totally hijack this, but are you/what optic are you going to use?

AS TG says you can upgrade the rifle as you go.... upgrading optics is something else
Title: Re: What do you guys think of this rifle??
Post by: Birddog6424 on May 29, 2013, 10:29:11 PM
Not to totally hijack this, but are you/what optic are you going to use?

AS TG says you can upgrade the rifle as you go.... upgrading optics is something else

Right now we are looking at the Burris Tac30 1x4 with a Burris QD PEPR mount.

Or another Vortex Viper PST 1x4 like I have on my rifle.

The Burris is $200 less and to be honest, I think it is sufficient for the task. I don't think you need an uncapped turret if you have a BDC or subtension type reticle.


Prebuilt guns for 3 gun, that are ready to rock and roll, just add optic.

Stag 3G

ColtProModelCRB-16 is an option,

DPMS that you found

Those are all great guns right off the shelf. A shame they want so much for that Colt.
Title: Re: What do you guys think of this rifle??
Post by: EKuo on May 30, 2013, 02:16:16 PM
I'm a fan of the Burris reticle on the Tac30/MTAC.  Good usable info and quick.  Quality of the glass is decent as well. 

The PEPR... not so big a fan of that one, but it works OK and the eye-relief on the Burris' is pretty forgiving.   

     
Title: Re: What do you guys think of this rifle??
Post by: Birddog6424 on May 31, 2013, 11:10:17 AM
I've had good luck with my PEPR so far. I have my Vortex mounted on it.

No issues with retaining zero, even after popping it on and off a couple times.

My fear on the build is actually finding the components. As everyone is aware, parts are hard to come by. Trying to put one together piecemeal is like a scavenger hunt of who has it in stock, is it what you want, or how long is the wait/backorder to get it.

It could shape up into a quite a headache in this particular market.
Title: Re: What do you guys think of this rifle??
Post by: Birddog6424 on June 04, 2013, 12:09:08 PM
A build is not looking good right now.

There is always some piece of the puzzle missing. It would defeat the purpose of building to fit when it seems like the specific part(s) I want are unavailable.

After spending a bunch of time shopping and trying to get a specific build, then discovering it isn't going to happen and I have to settle for something else, that DPMS 3G is looking pretty good.

But Lord only knows if I can even get it.
Title: Re: What do you guys think of this rifle??
Post by: Luvmy45 on June 04, 2013, 02:28:45 PM
The gun is available... you just have to get in line, put in the order and you'll get it...

If your waiting for one to hit a shelf... it's gonna be a while, or what Eno's after a major 3 gun match... if one was on the prize table, they often turn up for sale there. At about retail pricing...

Or wait till Cody wins another rifle and buy it from him.  :o
Title: Re: What do you guys think of this rifle??
Post by: carharttfarmer on June 04, 2013, 10:05:36 PM
I use the same dpms barrel as there 3g model your looking at I ended up having it turned down was just a bit muzzle heavy
I've handled the dpms and owned a stag for a couple hours ;) the stag IMO is a better buy/setup

 I would still think about building a 16 ifi were you
You two could share your current gun till you get it put together unless your worried about cooties ;)
Title: Re: What do you guys think of this rifle??
Post by: Birddog6424 on June 04, 2013, 11:19:05 PM
I use the same dpms barrel as there 3g model your looking at I ended up having it turned down was just a bit muzzle heavy
I've handled the dpms and owned a stag for a couple hours ;) the stag IMO is a better buy/setup

 I would still think about building a 16 ifi were you
You two could share your current gun till you get it put together unless your worried about cooties ;)

I think the DPMS is out. We talked about it tonight. We have heard from several sources it's a little front heavy. Shirley is no princess when it comes to hanging with the boys, but she's only 5'3". A lighter profile 16" barrel would be to her benefit, instead of a heavy 18". She already thinks my heavy profile 16" DD is to heavier than she would like.

We are trying to get a mid length 16" lightweight profile barrel from Daniel Defense. An entire upper in the M4 V7 LW if possible. That would solve a LOT of issues.

We will share my gun for now though. Cooties and all, it's a community property state.
Title: Re: What do you guys think of this rifle??
Post by: Danno on June 05, 2013, 07:05:59 AM
BCM had some lightweight middy 16" uppers in stock recently, I keep eyeballing them for if I ever get around to building an AR. Price isn't too bad either with a good rep.

I did some searchin' on 3gun ready ARs and came across the Doublestar 3gun rifle. It looked pretty good too.



Title: Re: What do you guys think of this rifle??
Post by: Birddog6424 on June 05, 2013, 12:10:05 PM
I was passing by the new Hawktech location today and saw Dan's truck and stopped in to see how it was going. Glad I did.

Come to find out, Dan pretty much has everything I need in stock to build an entire upper using a DD LW 16" barrel.

On Monday I am taking Shirley in and we are going to outline our build and pick our pieces. I'll let everyone know how it goes.

Appreciate all the advice!!
Title: Re: What do you guys think of this rifle??
Post by: EKuo on June 05, 2013, 12:12:20 PM
Assembling an AR is like legos for adults.  With enough money, anything is possible.  Have fun! 
Title: Re: What do you guys think of this rifle??
Post by: Birddog6424 on June 05, 2013, 10:09:48 PM
Anyone understand all this "milspec versus commercial" buffer tube crap?

I have a commercial buffer tube, but no idea if it will fit the lower Dan has.

Will they both fit any stripped lower but just have different diameters for the stock?
Title: Re: What do you guys think of this rifle??
Post by: EKuo on June 05, 2013, 10:15:41 PM
Yes, you pretty much got it right.  Both size buffer tubes will thread onto the lower.  But make sure you get a stock that fits a commercial tube. 
Title: Re: What do you guys think of this rifle??
Post by: J Mack on June 05, 2013, 10:16:11 PM
(http://t1.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcSABQ21j-oUKHD52HXXsPYZdsxslXtcuMYprVsZz-iNvBjzc-kNbg)

(http://www.teufelhundentactical.com/uploads/1/0/2/2/10220398/6013681_orig.jpg)

(http://www.teufelhundentactical.com/uploads/1/0/2/2/10220398/2805586_orig.jpg)
Title: Re: What do you guys think of this rifle??
Post by: RGinIdaho on June 06, 2013, 06:24:51 AM
Anyone understand all this "milspec versus commercial" buffer tube crap?

I have a commercial buffer tube, but no idea if it will fit the lower Dan has.
Will they both fit any stripped lower but just have different diameters for the stock?