Idaho Gun Talk

Shooting Sports - Shooting and Competitions => USPSA => Topic started by: EKuo on February 07, 2016, 09:39:51 AM

Title: PCC in USPSA...Good idea or fail?
Post by: EKuo on February 07, 2016, 09:39:51 AM
There has been quite a bit of discussion in the last two months on various forums regarding adding Pistol Caliber Carbines as a USPSA provisional division to play alongside the seven other handgun divisions.  The discussions really took off when USPSA decided to approve PCC as one of the divisions in Steel Challenge, and it naturally progressed to talking about USPSA handgun matches.  Like most things these days it appears to be a fairly polarized topics with people ardently voicing their opinion for and against. 

As I understand the situation, there are a handful of clubs currently offering PCC at their regular USPSA matches.  The numbers of participants aren't huge, rather it seems like it's twosies and threesies here and there, or at best there may be enough to fill out a squad.  But it does seem to have much more interest than the Carry Optics division.

The proponents of adding PCC to USPSA are citing that it is a good fit at a USPSA handgun matches seeing as the pistol caliber out of a carbine is conducive to our paper and steel targets at the distances commonly seen at a USPSA match (unlike .223 ARs), PCC seems to be a red-headed step child with regard to 3-gun, and there isn't enough critical mass to host a PCC stand alone match.  Apparently there has been sufficient interest that the USPSA BoD discussed this at their January meeting and directed DNROI to develop some guidelines to cover equipment requirements and also evaluate where the current handgun rulebook would need to have some addendums added to cover PCC use.  The draft proposal should be available for member comment in March.  I anticipate it will cover things like:
-transport and condition of carbine between stages
-Start positions (i.e. Placement of hands prior to start signal, what if's for uprange starts)
-SHO/WHO shooting and how that translates to PCC
-an appendix covering equipment rules (i.e. Calibers, barrel length, mag size/restrictions if any, optics vs iron sights, etc.)

Those against PCC have voiced a number of concerns, most of which I hope can be addressed in the rules addendum, though some are philosophical in nature (which the rulebook may not be able to address).  I think the highlights of those concerns are:
-Rifles (which includes carbines) should not be allowed in a handgun match
-Concerns about safety
-Concern that stage design will need to be altered to favor PCCs
-Concern that it will take longer to shoot a match
-Concern that host clubs may take on liability if some of the competitors are not following state and NFA laws (somebody shoulders a Sig Brace or shoots a SBR without proper Form 1)
-Some clubs are already at capacity

There are legitimate concerns on both sides of the argument, though I am hopeful that DNROI will address the majority of them in their rules addendum, but we shall see. 

Here's my take:
1.  We will not change how we currently design stages to suit PCC anymore than we don't bias the stages towards any one particular division.  We won't make the shots harder just to suit PCC, nor will we dumb down some of the awkward shooting positions.  To me, that's part of the challenge and fun. 
2.  If/when we offer PCC as a division, it will be just like any other division.  Pick ONE when you register.  MD discretion if we allow you to register a second gun just like we do now.
3.  Competitor's responsibility to ensure compliance with all state and NFA laws, just like it is right now with pistols and at 3-gun matches. 
4.  We will comply with the equipment rules (whatever they are) when they come out.  Until then, buyer beware. 

All that having been said, curious as to how much interest we have locally for PCC as its own division?   Or what things do we need to be paying attention to? 
Title: Re: PCC in USPSA...Good idea or fail?
Post by: Nealio on February 07, 2016, 12:24:30 PM
I think your assessment is correct; there really isn't a good place to shoot PCCs right now for competition.
But I agree the stages should just be stages without bias to any type of shooter ( well every revolver, but that's in the rules). I think if anyone plans to shoot PCC they need to understand what they are getting into just like everyone else does.
Title: Re: PCC in USPSA...Good idea or fail?
Post by: dsa on February 07, 2016, 06:19:53 PM
I think it sounds fun.  However, I think it has the potential to slow down a match if it gains momentum and more people start shooting PCC and want to shoot two divisions.
Title: Re: PCC in USPSA...Good idea or fail?
Post by: EKuo on February 07, 2016, 06:46:59 PM
I think it sounds fun.  However, I think it has the potential to slow down a match if it gains momentum and more people start shooting PCC and want to shoot two divisions.

Low turn out, may not be an issue.  Big turn out like we sometimes have... Probably not a good idea. 

We hardly ever have somebody wanting to shoot 2 divisions at a USPSA match right now.
Title: Re: PCC in USPSA...Good idea or fail?
Post by: AF Guy Who Shoots on February 07, 2016, 07:53:18 PM
This is something I would be interested in. As far as shooting 2 divisions, I think that would be a non issue. I would either pick pistol or PCC to shoot, but that is me. As far as stage design goes, design it for pistol and let the PCC guys adapt. I don't think it will be huge, but it does pick up a niche that currently doesn't really have a home.
Title: Re: PCC in USPSA...Good idea or fail?
Post by: fallin guy on February 07, 2016, 08:19:27 PM
I don't think it will really increase attendance all that much. I think some night just decide to shoot pcc instead of pistol. What are the safety issues though? With encroaching housing being an issue, what if someone a.d.s one over the berm. As far as adding a division or more people shooting, I'm glad no one said no to rimfire at practice matches. Let it rip queso dip!
Title: Re: PCC in USPSA...Good idea or fail?
Post by: EKuo on February 07, 2016, 08:54:22 PM
Some of the safety concerns I've read online:

Handguns are holstered and are supposed to be empty/hammer down / and matches are supposed to be "cold range".  Since PCCs can't be holstered, the rules need to clarify what is considered the right condition to maintain the "cold range".  I suspect they'll take a lot of the rules from the USPSA multi-gun rulebook since those are already established.  I'm just speculating, but for example:  After the "If clear, hammer down" command you bag it, then the Range is Clear command can be given.  Another option being kicked around is insert a chamber flag once the RO has verified the gun is clear, and then you walk over to where your bag/case is and put it away.  You'll need to keep your muzzle pointed in a safe direction.  There has been quite a bit of discussion if a PCC with a chamber flag inserted can be considered a "dead stick" or if you need to be escorted to where ever your bag/case/kart is.

3-gun does a lot of staging of guns on a designated table or rack while shooters are waiting their turn.  This could be a method that is adopted. 

As far as other safety issues, some people are concerned about the 180, especially in tight quarters or awkward leans.  There could be some target presentations where the shooter needs to shoot one-handed and the longer length of a PCC may be harder to control (or small/weak people won't be able to do it).  So some have said that PCC will dumb down the stages and avoid these types of hard leans. 

Up range starts will need some figuring out.  With the handgun holstered it's not an issue if the shooter faces uprange provided they don't draw until they complete the turn.  For a PCC shooter, uprange with gun in hand is no Bueno.  So maybe the fix is to require the gun be on a table behind the shooter when facing uprange. But this will require an extra set of instructions in the WSB for the PCC shooters as well as maybe adding a table to the stage setup. 

On stages that start with hands on X's, where is the gun?  A lot of 3-gun stages have the rifle staged on a table or they will say muzzle of gun touches the X (instead of hands).  It's doable, but your typical "start hands on X's" stage will need a PCC-specific start instruction written into the WSB. 

USPSA has a rule that says the competitor should not touch the gun or ammo prior to the start.  For PCC, this may need an addendum to the rulebook exempting them from that (unless it's an unloaded gun start). 

Stuff like that... 

Title: Re: PCC in USPSA...Good idea or fail?
Post by: r.harvey on February 07, 2016, 09:02:12 PM
I would go for it. But I would also want to shoot my pistol.
Title: Re: PCC in USPSA...Good idea or fail?
Post by: praetorian97 on February 07, 2016, 10:26:32 PM
My initial thought is that PCC shooters will want to squad up with other PCC shooters.

Allowing a squad to have 3-4 PCC guys shooting dual divisions will slow a normal squad down because you just added 3-4 more shooters without actually 3-4 more helpers. IE a squad of 10 will have to shoot the stage 13-14 times. A guy shooting dual divisions will be more distracted getting ready and cleaning up shooting each stage twice and in turn have less time to tape/reset.

Not a catastrophe by any means but some food for thought for PCC. I know atleast 5 guys locally that would shoot PCC.
Title: Re: PCC in USPSA...Good idea or fail?
Post by: motosapiens on February 08, 2016, 08:57:33 AM
My initial thought is that PCC shooters will want to squad up with other PCC shooters.

Allowing a squad to have 3-4 PCC guys shooting dual divisions will slow a normal squad down because you just added 3-4 more shooters without actually 3-4 more helpers. IE a squad of 10 will have to shoot the stage 13-14 times. A guy shooting dual divisions will be more distracted getting ready and cleaning up shooting each stage twice and in turn have less time to tape/reset.

Not a catastrophe by any means but some food for thought for PCC. I know atleast 5 guys locally that would shoot PCC.

excellent points. if you shoot 2 divisions, you are essentially slacking, not pullling your weight, not doing your share, being lazy, and making others do your work for you.

if you can get 10-12 folks that want to shoot 2 divisions, they can just run the match again after the main match is done, and then they can tear down. I might take advantage of that when time allows, but I would not be interested in shooting 2 divisions at the same time because I don't think it is fair to the other shooters.
Title: Re: PCC in USPSA...Good idea or fail?
Post by: r.harvey on February 08, 2016, 09:47:39 AM
  are essentially slacking, not pullling your weight, not doing your share, being lazy, and making others do your work for you.


Sounds like me. So like I said I'm going for it.
Title: Re: PCC in USPSA...Good idea or fail?
Post by: Talionis on February 08, 2016, 11:05:04 AM
I'm more excited about PCC than I have been about any other division outside Production. 3 gun isn't interesting to me because shotgun, and PCC will provide a venue to work on my rifle skills and pretend I'm an 80's action hero.

I have no plans to shoot both PCC and handgun at the same match, and would not be in favor of it. I quit shooting Steel Challenge last summer in large part because of the number of people shooting multiple guns. For me, it is extremely frustrating to queue up at a stage with 3 or 4 people at it and discover I'm 9 down the list. I may give SC another try this summer because it can be fun, and I need to get better at it, but I'd be lying if I said I was happy with multiple gun shooters going all at once for each stage. A group of dudes shooting an after match with their PCC's would be a decent way to handle people wanting to shoot multiple guns, though really that shouldn't be just limited to PCC I guess, if people want to shoot more guns and will commit to teardown, rock on.

It seems like most of the issues other than "rifles GTFO of my pistol match" can be addressed by changing/adding some default rules in the rulebook as it relates to PCC. I don't think we would even need to really change WSB's for the most part, PCC gets a default start for 'up-range', one for surrender, etc. It doesn't need to be complicated, nor does it need to affect how we run matches. I'm not a fan of the "dead stick" idea for rifles because I don't want to be swept by any gun ever, whether loaded or not. Nor do I want the population of our clubs dwindling because of consequences from Ultimo;)
Title: Re: PCC in USPSA...Good idea or fail?
Post by: junkie on February 08, 2016, 12:05:53 PM
I don't like the idea. It just doesn't seem like a uspsa type of division. It might however have more people than revo.
I am sure that the safety and logistics we can figure out.
Title: Re: PCC in USPSA...Good idea or fail?
Post by: EKuo on February 11, 2016, 10:39:35 PM
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=byubawDsnFo&feature=youtu.be
Title: Re: PCC in USPSA...Good idea or fail?
Post by: carharttfarmer on February 14, 2016, 07:23:15 PM
I'm more excited about PCC than I have been about any other division outside Production. 3 gun isn't interesting to me because shotgun, and PCC will provide a venue to work on my rifle skills and pretend I'm an 80's action hero.



Just curious why no interest because shotgun? I mean you being a lowcap lifer and liking low capacity/reloads/stage breakdown shotgun seems to be the crossover to that skill set.

And camo long hair spraying bullets and pretending to be awesome is climate changes domain. So be careful not to steal his look when you play action hero he's pretty sensitive about stuff like that.


On the upside if what I read on enos is true once the rules come out other than a few holdouts chasing hawktech wins we'll all be living in a gun twirling knee sweeping single division utopia   ;) 
Title: Re: PCC in USPSA...Good idea or fail?
Post by: Talionis on February 14, 2016, 08:14:10 PM

Just curious why no interest because shotgun? I mean you being a lowcap lifer and liking low capacity/reloads/stage breakdown shotgun seems to be the crossover to that skill set.

And camo long hair spraying bullets and pretending to be awesome is climate changes domain. So be careful not to steal his look when you play action hero he's pretty sensitive about stuff like that.

I like shooting shotguns. At clay birdies flying through the air. I do not like reloading shotguns, it takes ages, and isn't fun. And also makes you look like a douche when you post the latest double/quad/octo load technique to the interwebs. There are plenty of dudes that would shoot 3gun a lot more if there were only two guns, myself included.

Climate Change and I are both lawyers, so there is a certain level of professional courtesy. I don't think he'll mind me playing Sylvester Stallone to his Chuck Norris.
Title: Re: PCC in USPSA...Good idea or fail?
Post by: carharttfarmer on February 14, 2016, 08:59:49 PM
I like shooting shotguns. At clay birdies flying through the air. I do not like reloading shotguns, it takes ages, and isn't fun. And also makes you look like a douche when you post the latest double/quad/octo load technique to the interwebs. There are plenty of dudes that would shoot 3gun a lot more if there were only two guns, myself included.

Climate Change and I are both lawyers, so there is a certain level of professional courtesy. I don't think he'll mind me playing Sylvester Stallone to his Chuck Norris.


Kind of applies to all shooting gear interwebs posts regardless of sport loaders ,holsters ,belts , pouches etc. Nobody's winning cuz their new shit does the same thing in a different color. But I guess its better than selfies or leg room pics 
Title: Re: PCC in USPSA...Good idea or fail?
Post by: Roop on February 14, 2016, 09:12:19 PM

Kind of applies to all shooting gear interwebs posts regardless of sport loaders ,holsters ,belts , pouches etc. Nobody's winning cuz their new shit does the same thing in a different color. But I guess its better than selfies or leg room pics
that gets a rep!
Title: Re: PCC in USPSA...Good idea or fail?
Post by: Talionis on February 14, 2016, 11:50:41 PM

Kind of applies to all shooting gear interwebs posts regardless of sport loaders ,holsters ,belts , pouches etc. Nobody's winning cuz their new shit does the same thing in a different color. But I guess its better than selfies or leg room pics

No argument here:) Gear is just a matter of finding what gets in the way least and rolling on. It is better than selfies or leg room (wtf is that?) pics though.

Title: Re: PCC in USPSA...Good idea or fail?
Post by: carharttfarmer on February 15, 2016, 12:55:01 PM
No argument here:) Gear is just a matter of finding what gets in the way least and rolling on. It is better than selfies or leg room (wtf is that?) pics though.


A facebook fad amongst shooter/industry people posting pics of the leg room or lack there of when traveling by air.  Ranks slightly more annoying than look how I ruined bacon posts and slightly less than look I ran/exercised or did crossfit posts . 
Title: Re: PCC in USPSA...Good idea or fail?
Post by: praetorian97 on February 15, 2016, 01:00:32 PM
Farmer is just pissed he's on the no fly list ever since the incident where they wouldn't let him carry Bessy on board as a "service animal".
Title: Re: PCC in USPSA...Good idea or fail?
Post by: carharttfarmer on February 15, 2016, 01:13:48 PM
Your just upset I didn't mention dry fire posts.
Title: Re: PCC in USPSA...Good idea or fail?
Post by: Smitty on February 15, 2016, 03:35:02 PM
I think that PCC is best served at a rifle match.
Our current USPSA matches will require rule changes, as well as changes to stage design to accommodate rifles.

Please don't point your rifle at me.
Title: Re: PCC in USPSA...Good idea or fail?
Post by: carharttfarmer on February 15, 2016, 03:46:22 PM
I think that PCC is best served at a rifle match.
Our current USPSA matches will require rule changes, as well as changes to stage design to accommodate rifles.

Please don't point your rifle at me.


Why do you think people will point rifles at you?
Title: Re: PCC in USPSA...Good idea or fail?
Post by: Roop on February 15, 2016, 03:50:03 PM
I think that PCC is best served at a rifle match.
Our current USPSA matches will require rule changes, as well as changes to stage design to accommodate rifles.

Please don't point your rifle at me.
There aren't any matches that specifically cater to this type of firearm. 3gun? sure, right up to the point where we start shooting past 100yds. Almost every 3gun match we shoot at Parma has at least one long range stage, usually putting targets out past 400yds. There is a sanctioning body called US Carbine Association (http://www.uscarbineassociation.com/index.cfm) but no one has taken the time to start a local match based on their rule set. I'm pretty sure that USPSA has a multi-gun rule set in place, it's just a matter of MDs being willing to accommodate the shooters who want to branch out a little.
Title: Re: PCC in USPSA...Good idea or fail?
Post by: EKuo on February 15, 2016, 05:24:19 PM
-What if nothing changed for the pistol shooters? 

-What if we kept designing and shooting the same kind of stages that we do now?

-What if we kept it to just shoot one gun per match like we do now? 

-What if the only changes made in the WSB were to accommodate PCC start position, i.e. Can start with gun in hand if facing down range, if uprange start is required then the PCC is staged on a table downrange of shooter, if hands on X's are required in the WSB the start for PCC would be muzzle touching X, etc. 

-What if we require chamber flags at ULASC and bagging between stages? 

What then? 
Title: Re: PCC in USPSA...Good idea or fail?
Post by: Talionis on February 15, 2016, 07:57:06 PM
-What if nothing changed for the pistol shooters? 

-What if we kept designing and shooting the same kind of stages that we do now?

-What if we kept it to just shoot one gun per match like we do now? 

-What if the only changes made in the WSB were to accommodate PCC start position, i.e. Can start with gun in hand if facing down range, if uprange start is required then the PCC is staged on a table downrange of shooter, if hands on X's are required in the WSB the start for PCC would be muzzle touching X, etc. 

-What if we require chamber flags at ULASC and bagging between stages? 

What then?

Sounds like a living nightmare.
Title: Re: PCC in USPSA...Good idea or fail?
Post by: Talionis on February 15, 2016, 07:59:19 PM
(https://i.imgflip.com/z9rmg.jpg) (https://imgflip.com/i/z9rmg)via Imgflip Meme Maker (https://imgflip.com/memegenerator)
Title: Re: PCC in USPSA...Good idea or fail?
Post by: EKuo on February 15, 2016, 08:25:11 PM
Too beaucoup.
Title: Re: PCC in USPSA...Good idea or fail?
Post by: fallin guy on February 15, 2016, 08:42:32 PM
Evans, why don't you bring one on Saturday for a trial run? See how it goes.
Title: Re: PCC in USPSA...Good idea or fail?
Post by: EKuo on February 15, 2016, 10:20:57 PM
Can't make it this weekend.  Too beaucoup. 
Title: Re: PCC in USPSA...Good idea or fail?
Post by: AF Guy Who Shoots on February 16, 2016, 12:03:19 PM
I think that PCC is best served at a rifle match.
Our current USPSA matches will require rule changes, as well as changes to stage design to accommodate rifles.

Please don't point your rifle at me.

You should just save us all the time and cut and paste your Enos arguments here. Don't forget to include the parts where you will call the cops.
Title: Re: PCC in USPSA...Good idea or fail?
Post by: EKuo on February 16, 2016, 05:46:12 PM
Too beaucoup. 
Title: Re: PCC in USPSA...Good idea or fail?
Post by: Nealio on February 16, 2016, 07:23:56 PM
I would like to go on record saying I do not wish to point my gun at Smitty. Unless of course we are in the back room of the fire house and he asks nicely.
Title: Re: PCC in USPSA...Good idea or fail?
Post by: idHawk on February 16, 2016, 07:43:53 PM
-What if nothing changed for the pistol shooters? 

-What if we kept designing and shooting the same kind of stages that we do now?

-What if we kept it to just shoot one gun per match like we do now? 

-What if the only changes made in the WSB were to accommodate PCC start position, i.e. Can start with gun in hand if facing down range, if uprange start is required then the PCC is staged on a table downrange of shooter, if hands on X's are required in the WSB the start for PCC would be muzzle touching X, etc. 

-What if we require chamber flags at ULASC and bagging between stages? 

What then?


I really don't understand the concerns that people have.   I think it sounds like fun and many of the concerns come from people that don't shoot 3Gun, so it would seem there is some apprehension based in fear of the unknown more than anything.   The 180 rule is the 180 rule.   You break it, you go home.   Safety first still applies.   Based on Mike's video, I don't see how it has to change anything for current shooters.   I'm not a fan of people shooting two divisions, but other than that, I'm all for it.   One of the dumbest complaints I've heard is that Pistol shooters will be competing against rifle shooters and that it's not fair.   Boo Freaking Hoo!  That's just plain dumb.    Sounds like a bunch of scared pistol shooters that only look at the overall standings to me.    Nothing has to change for the current shooters.    Let's embrace this.  It could be great for the sport.   Or.... We could whine like a bunch of IDPA shooters and "keep those damn PCC Gamers from ruining our sport!"
Title: Re: PCC in USPSA...Good idea or fail?
Post by: fallin guy on February 16, 2016, 08:11:47 PM
2nd.
Title: Re: PCC in USPSA...Good idea or fail?
Post by: praetorian97 on February 16, 2016, 08:33:10 PM
Dan just wants a new gun.
Title: Re: PCC in USPSA...Good idea or fail?
Post by: idHawk on February 17, 2016, 02:39:52 PM
Dan just wants a new gun.

True Dat!  Unlike you though, I don't need permission to buy it.   Besides, posting pistol reloads is WAY overdone.   PCC reloads though?  I could be a real trailblazer there.   :o
Title: Re: PCC in USPSA...Good idea or fail?
Post by: DJM on February 17, 2016, 05:12:34 PM
Dan just wants a new gun.

Dan not only wants a new gun, he wants us all to have new guns.  I haven't dared show up at the shop since this whole thing got started for fear I will be subjected to his speech about the virtues of the PCC and how badly I need to buy one if I want to fit in with the cool kids.
Title: Re: PCC in USPSA...Good idea or fail?
Post by: J Mack on February 17, 2016, 05:54:35 PM
Dan not only wants a new gun, he wants us all to have new guns.  I haven't dared show up at the shop since this whole thing got started for fear I will be subjected to his speech about the virtues of the PCC and how badly I need to buy one if I want to fit in with the cool kids.


Just buy the new gun, you know you are...

(http://i24.photobucket.com/albums/c47/darrbar/Forum%20pics/swinger.gif)
Title: Re: PCC in USPSA...Good idea or fail?
Post by: Talionis on February 17, 2016, 06:24:12 PM
Dan not only wants a new gun, he wants us all to have new guns.  I haven't dared show up at the shop since this whole thing got started for fear I will be subjected to his speech about the virtues of the PCC and how badly I need to buy one if I want to fit in with the cool kids.

That is patently false Counselor. I talked with you at the shop as I was in the process of buying my lower to SBR for the new wunderdivision. Join us. You won't even have to shoot a pistol!
Title: Re: PCC in USPSA...Good idea or fail?
Post by: idHawk on February 17, 2016, 06:32:09 PM
Dan not only wants a new gun, he wants us all to have new guns.  I haven't dared show up at the shop since this whole thing got started for fear I will be subjected to his speech about the virtues of the PCC and how badly I need to buy one if I want to fit in with the cool kids.

Two things....

1.  Duh!

2.  We all know you want to fit in with the cool kids, so jump on board the PCC train before you miss it.   You need all the help you can to fit in with the cool kids. 

Title: Re: PCC in USPSA...Good idea or fail?
Post by: fallin guy on February 17, 2016, 07:02:26 PM
Isn't just a hat an option?
Title: Re: PCC in USPSA...Good idea or fail?
Post by: idHawk on February 17, 2016, 07:05:43 PM
Isn't just a hat an option?

Well, there is that.  All the cool kids have them.
Title: Re: PCC in USPSA...Good idea or fail?
Post by: Smitty on February 17, 2016, 09:01:51 PM
You should just save us all the time and cut and paste your Enos arguments here. Don't forget to include the parts where you will call the cops.

Nah,
I'm pretty much over it.
No need for you to get ugly with me though.
I don't know you but I'm more interested in making friends than enimies at matches.
Title: Re: PCC in USPSA...Good idea or fail?
Post by: EKuo on February 17, 2016, 09:59:31 PM
Dan not only wants a new gun, he wants us all to have new guns.  I haven't dared show up at the shop since this whole thing got started for fear I will be subjected to his speech about the virtues of the PCC and how badly I need to buy one if I want to fit in with the cool kids.

You gotta admit tho, they are fun. 
Title: Re: PCC in USPSA...Good idea or fail?
Post by: AF Guy Who Shoots on February 18, 2016, 06:52:26 AM
I am not out to make enemies. As a matter of fact, had you not thrown in your please don't point your rifle at me, I wouldn't have said anything. But you make statements about how PCC will change how matches are run, but like Evans said, what if it changes  nothing. Until it is implemented and given a fair shot, no one knows how it will turn out. I may or may not shoot PCC. I wouldn't shoot it at 3 gun matches because I would prefer to shoot tac ops. But I may shoot PCC at USPSA matches as it is not the primary gun game I choose to play all the time.
Title: Re: PCC in USPSA...Good idea or fail?
Post by: DJM on February 18, 2016, 09:25:40 AM
Two things....
 We all know you want to fit in with the cool kids, so jump on board the PCC train before you miss it.   You need all the help you can to fit in with the cool kids.

I think it may be too late for this grandpa to fit in with the cool kids.  Besides, if I catch the little bastards cutting across my lawn again I'm going to kick their asses.
Title: Re: PCC in USPSA...Good idea or fail?
Post by: DJM on February 18, 2016, 09:30:00 AM
That is patently false Counselor. I talked with you at the shop as I was in the process of buying my lower to SBR for the new wunderdivision. Join us. You won't even have to shoot a pistol!

I'm sure I will join you for a match or two this season.  I am planning to shoot a pistol, however.  Lord knows I need the practice.  Although, if it looks like the PCC kids are having fun, you never know.
Title: Re: PCC in USPSA...Good idea or fail?
Post by: praetorian97 on February 18, 2016, 11:32:29 AM
Get on the PCC craze Dan and stock that stuff buddy!
Title: Re: PCC in USPSA...Good idea or fail?
Post by: praetorian97 on February 18, 2016, 11:49:27 AM
Everyone eat at snickers and go shop at Hawktech for all your PCC needs.

(http://1waynewriters.pbworks.com/f/1380203665/92_mr_t_snickers1.jpg)
Title: Re: PCC in USPSA...Good idea or fail?
Post by: EKuo on February 18, 2016, 12:18:57 PM
I think it may be too late for this grandpa to fit in with the cool kids.  Besides, if I catch the little bastards cutting across my lawn again I'm going to kick their asses.

Sounds like you and Moto need to find a porch to sit on together and yell:  GET OFF MY LAWN YA DAMN KIDS! 
Title: Re: PCC in USPSA...Good idea or fail?
Post by: motosapiens on February 18, 2016, 12:27:04 PM
Sounds like you and Moto need to find a porch to sit on together and yell:  GET OFF MY LAWN YA DAMN KIDS!
Hey, don't drag me into this. If you say it can be done without changing things, then I have no reason not to trust you. I'm still not particularly interested in PCC myself (i have a hard enough time just learning how to shoot a pistol better), but if it can be pulled off without damaging the pistol shooting experience, then I have no objections.  Group hug everyone.  {ajg308]   [MoreLove}
Title: Re: PCC in USPSA...Good idea or fail?
Post by: EKuo on February 18, 2016, 01:14:36 PM
Except for you damn meddling kids on my lawn... 
Title: Re: PCC in USPSA...Good idea or fail?
Post by: carharttfarmer on February 18, 2016, 01:32:07 PM
I think it may be too late for this grandpa to fit in with the cool kids.  Besides, if I catch the little bastards cutting across my lawn again I'm going to kick their asses.


I assume this only happens on the days you can remember which lawn is yours?
Title: Re: PCC in USPSA...Good idea or fail?
Post by: praetorian97 on February 18, 2016, 01:32:20 PM
(http://static.rogerebert.com/uploads/review/primary_image/reviews/gran-torino-2008/homepage_EB20081217REVIEWS812179989AR.jpg)
Title: Re: PCC in USPSA...Good idea or fail?
Post by: J Mack on February 18, 2016, 02:21:21 PM
Fixed it for you!
Title: Re: PCC in USPSA...Good idea or fail?
Post by: praetorian97 on February 18, 2016, 02:31:32 PM
Your PS skills are greatly improving. Then again you had about 50 avatars to perfect your method LOL
Title: Re: PCC in USPSA...Good idea or fail?
Post by: DJM on February 19, 2016, 01:05:36 PM
Fixed it for you!

Way to go ahead and make my day, J Mack.
Title: Re: PCC in USPSA...Good idea or fail?
Post by: DJM on February 19, 2016, 01:12:34 PM

I assume this only happens on the days you can remember which lawn is yours?

After you had to send True into the gas station to help me find my out after you guys ditched me, I've been carrying my GPS everywhere I go.  I hit the "go home" button and I'm in pretty good shape.
Title: Re: PCC in USPSA...Good idea or fail?
Post by: carharttfarmer on February 19, 2016, 01:35:40 PM
After you had to send True into the gas station to help me find my out after you guys ditched me, I've been carrying my GPS everywhere I go.  I hit the "go home" button and I'm in pretty good shape.


Don't worry we all chipped in and bought a invisible leash for you. Should quickly put a stop to your wandering off.
Biggest hurdle will be deciding who gets the remote or as you call it the ''clicker''
Title: Re: PCC in USPSA...Good idea or fail?
Post by: praetorian97 on February 22, 2016, 09:32:54 AM
Now that USPSA shooters are shooting PCC guns, I cant make fun of the 3 gunners over compensating with their 6 inch pistols.
Title: Re: PCC in USPSA...Good idea or fail?
Post by: Talionis on February 22, 2016, 10:08:39 AM
You can still make fun of them not aiming.
Title: Re: PCC in USPSA...Good idea or fail?
Post by: motosapiens on February 22, 2016, 10:13:27 AM
You can still make fun of them not aiming.

Or just design a whole match that doesn't have 2 open targets next to each other (might not even have had 2 open targets period). that'll teach those non-aiming m-f-ers.
Title: Re: PCC in USPSA...Good idea or fail?
Post by: Cml on February 22, 2016, 10:37:05 AM
Farmer, I'm pretty sure they are talking about you
Title: Re: PCC in USPSA...Good idea or fail?
Post by: praetorian97 on February 22, 2016, 10:45:18 AM
Farmer, I'm pretty sure they are talking about you

(http://www.trbimg.com/img-503fcdcb/turbine/sns-viral-below-the-belt-pictures-003/594/594x334)
Title: Re: PCC in USPSA...Good idea or fail?
Post by: Nealio on February 22, 2016, 12:07:48 PM
Or just design a whole match that doesn't have 2 open targets next to each other (might not even have had 2 open targets period). that'll teach those non-aiming m-f-ers.

Now that's the kind of match I would show up for.
Title: Re: PCC in USPSA...Good idea or fail?
Post by: carharttfarmer on February 22, 2016, 01:21:23 PM
Or just design a whole match that doesn't have 2 open targets next to each other (might not even have had 2 open targets period). that'll teach those non-aiming m-f-ers.

No shoots sweet twice the round count
Title: Re: PCC in USPSA...Good idea or fail?
Post by: carharttfarmer on February 22, 2016, 01:24:38 PM
Now that's the kind of match I would talk about showing up for.
Fify
Title: Re: PCC in USPSA...Good idea or fail?
Post by: praetorian97 on February 22, 2016, 01:29:17 PM
Fify

REP! One now and another later.
Title: Re: PCC in USPSA...Good idea or fail?
Post by: KennyP on February 23, 2016, 07:30:21 AM
My concern is this: when do we cap out a maximum amount of divisions so that we can ultimately keep the sport competitive and interesting? PCC does not appeal to me, but I've always preferred to shoot pistol over rifle even before I ever competed, so that should be no surprise. I'm sure that some very simple rules can be added to PCC only and the division can be made safe and fair without having to change the match experience for the pistol guys. Really my only concern is that at this current pace, we'll have 20 divisions by 2018, and then the sport will suffer greatly IMO. Since this is competitive shooting, the fun part is the competition itself, and with tons of divisions each talent pool is watered down.
Title: Re: PCC in USPSA...Good idea or fail?
Post by: Nealio on February 23, 2016, 12:59:46 PM
Fify

Oops! Yeah thanks Farmer :)
Title: Re: PCC in USPSA...Good idea or fail?
Post by: blkntan on February 26, 2016, 01:02:22 PM
So maybe I missed it in this thread, but whats the thought on which PCC?
Are we talking like Beretta CX4?  H&K MP5 is always a classic I assume.  I'm not one of the cool kids now, so would showing up with a kel tec sub 2000 mean I'd never eat lunch at the cool table?
Title: Re: PCC in USPSA...Good idea or fail?
Post by: Talionis on February 26, 2016, 03:01:08 PM
MP5 if you're a baller. Right now they are one of the pricier options, although that may not continue to be the case;) Most people interested will build or buy an AR15 variant in 9mm. I think there are a lot of excellent options out there, so I would expect to see CZ Scorpion Evo's, SIG MPX's, Beretta Battle Star Galactica guns, Just Right Carbines, Kel Tec's, and even the hi-point carbines do a decent job.

While I expect the AR variants to be the most popular, I am not sure they will be the *best* option. They are simple blowback guns, and have a lot of reciprocating bolt mass to deal with. I think there might be a battle on the top end of the spectrum between the Sig and the HK for top dog title, but we shall see.
Title: Re: PCC in USPSA...Good idea or fail?
Post by: idHawk on February 26, 2016, 09:38:12 PM
MP5 if you're a baller. Right now they are one of the pricier options, although that may not continue to be the case;) Most people interested will build or buy an AR15 variant in 9mm. I think there are a lot of excellent options out there, so I would expect to see CZ Scorpion Evo's, SIG MPX's, Beretta Battle Star Galactica guns, Just Right Carbines, Kel Tec's, and even the hi-point carbines do a decent job.

While I expect the AR variants to be the most popular, I am not sure they will be the *best* option. They are simple blowback guns, and have a lot of reciprocating bolt mass to deal with. I think there might be a battle on the top end of the spectrum between the Sig and the HK for top dog title, but we shall see.

I have one of the AR Variants right now, but I really want to see what the CZ Scorpion and the Sig MPX can bring to the table.   Doing a SBR conversion on the MPX is very tempting at this point.  Then again, actually showing up to a match to shoot ANY gun would be nice at this point!
Title: Re: PCC in USPSA...Good idea or fail?
Post by: EKuo on February 26, 2016, 10:39:36 PM
My concern is this: when do we cap out a maximum amount of divisions so that we can ultimately keep the sport competitive and interesting? PCC does not appeal to me, but I've always preferred to shoot pistol over rifle even before I ever competed, so that should be no surprise. I'm sure that some very simple rules can be added to PCC only and the division can be made safe and fair without having to change the match experience for the pistol guys. Really my only concern is that at this current pace, we'll have 20 divisions by 2018, and then the sport will suffer greatly IMO. Since this is competitive shooting, the fun part is the competition itself, and with tons of divisions each talent pool is watered down.

I think when we get to about 21 or 22 divisions we ought to be about there...   chain
Title: Re: PCC in USPSA...Good idea or fail?
Post by: Talionis on March 01, 2016, 02:20:41 PM
Provisional rules: http://www.uspsa.org/forums/index.php?/topic/1618-pistol-caliber-carbine-appendix-d8-provisional-comments/ (http://www.uspsa.org/forums/index.php?/topic/1618-pistol-caliber-carbine-appendix-d8-provisional-comments/)

Breakdown:
No minimum barrel length.
Minor scoring, max 1600fps, approved calibers are 9mm, 357Sig, .40, 10mm, .45.
No mag capacity limit.
Must be shoulder fired, no Sig Braces allowed.
Slings OK.
Optics OK.
Breaks OK.
Suppressors NOT OK.
Start position: "As defined in WSB; muzzle points downrange, safety on and fingers outside trigger guard in all start positions."
Handling requirements: "un-cased/unbagged, slung, or hand carried firearms
If un-bagged, must be carried with the muzzle vertical, chamber flag installed. May not move from the vertical position until the Make Ready command is given, violations will be subject to Unsafe Gun Handling disqualification".
Handling requirements"cased/bagged firearms (note that carbine must be chamber flagged in all instances)
 If cased/bagged, may be carried in any orientation, may not be un-bagged until the Make Ready command is given; muzzle must be pointed downrange at Make Ready."

Title: Re: PCC in USPSA...Good idea or fail?
Post by: EKuo on March 01, 2016, 07:47:03 PM
I think USPS is making the right call with regard to not allowing the Sig Brace or iterations thereof.  It pretty much relegates us to either 16" carbines or Form 1 SBRs -and not a poorman's SBR that has been 'pistolized' to avoid all the controversy surrounding "shouldering" a pistol.  Burden is on the shooter to know and bring a legal carbine and keeps the org/host club/MD/RO out of Pandora's box.

I suspect (or hope) the wording about "must be fired from the shoulder" may be changed to "must be able to be fired from the shoulder" to allow for the hard leans that may require a one-handed shot like El Prez showed us in his demo video. 

All in all, I think DNROI gave this some good thought.  WSBs will have to describe start position for the uprange/turn/draw stages, or those that require hands on X's.  For example, a WSB that requires uprange start, PCC'ers can either be gun start on table or just have the PCC'ers start facing downrange. 

Hands on X's could be one hand to hold the PCC and the other hand on X, or do another table start for the PCC. 

I think this is a good start.  Looking forward to trying it out. 
Title: Re: PCC in USPSA...Good idea or fail?
Post by: Nealio on March 01, 2016, 09:56:50 PM
MP5 if you're a baller. Right now they are one of the pricier options, although that may not continue to be the case;) Most people interested will build or buy an AR15 variant in 9mm. I think there are a lot of excellent options out there, so I would expect to see CZ Scorpion Evo's, SIG MPX's, Beretta Battle Star Galactica guns, Just Right Carbines, Kel Tec's, and even the hi-point carbines do a decent job.

While I expect the AR variants to be the most popular, I am not sure they will be the *best* option. They are simple blowback guns, and have a lot of reciprocating bolt mass to deal with. I think there might be a battle on the top end of the spectrum between the Sig and the HK for top dog title, but we shall see.

The High Point is actually one of the more accurate and reliable carbines out there, but it takes single stack 9mm mags, so capacity is an issue. 
The Just Right carbine was a real let down for me. It needed to be cleaned often, and to clean it you had to take the buffer tube off and dissemble the whole gun. Which sucks.
The JP GMR13 carbine is an AR style carbine, and it is awesome. I can't say enough good things about it. Shoots about 1.5 MOA @ 100y with plated bullets (and a red dot), takes Glock mags, and it runs great. Let me reiterate that mine has ran flawlessly.  Even without me lubing or cleaning it, it just runs.
The CX4 is another one I looked at, but I have not shot. I would expect that to be a good option without breaking the bank.
The Kel-Tec I think would be good option, but only if your other option is throwing rocks.
The Sig and the HK I would guess are pretty good as well, but if they are more than the JP, then honestly I think the JP would be better overall.

The downside to some of the carbines is that they have more recoil than my .223/5.56 ARs due to the small gas volume not working the brake very well. Mine have all had a "thud" feeling when you shoot them. I don't know if the Sig and HK would be better in this aspect, but most of the blowback models will feel similar.

If any of guys want to try out the JP, feel free to contact me.

Nealio's $.02
Title: Re: PCC in USPSA...Good idea or fail?
Post by: Talionis on March 01, 2016, 11:41:33 PM
The High Point is actually one of the more accurate and reliable carbines out there, but it takes single stack 9mm mags, so capacity is an issue. 
The Just Right carbine was a real let down for me. It needed to be cleaned often, and to clean it you had to take the buffer tube off and dissemble the whole gun. Which sucks.
The JP GMR13 carbine is an AR style carbine, and it is awesome. I can't say enough good things about it. Shoots about 1.5 MOA @ 100y with plated bullets (and a red dot), takes Glock mags, and it runs great. Let me reiterate that mine has ran flawlessly.  Even without me lubing or cleaning it, it just runs.
The CX4 is another one I looked at, but I have not shot. I would expect that to be a good option without breaking the bank.
The Kel-Tec I think would be good option, but only if your other option is throwing rocks.
The Sig and the HK I would guess are pretty good as well, but if they are more than the JP, then honestly I think the JP would be better overall.

The downside to some of the carbines is that they have more recoil than my .223/5.56 ARs due to the small gas volume not working the brake very well. Mine have all had a "thud" feeling when you shoot them. I don't know if the Sig and HK would be better in this aspect, but most of the blowback models will feel similar.

If any of guys want to try out the JP, feel free to contact me.

Nealio's $.02

Good info from someone who's actually shot a few of these. I totally forgot the Hi-point uses single stack mags. That rules it out for anything but novelty.

I think the JP will be the 2011 of PCC for the most part, with the caveat that both the Sig and HK do not use straight gas blowback, and may have an edge when it comes to recoil characteristics. I won't be able to test the MP5 vs. 9mm AR question until later on this year.

Dan introduced me to the X-mag 50 round drum for Colt SMG magazines today. That was dirty pool. I think I might need one.
Title: Re: PCC in USPSA...Good idea or fail?
Post by: blkntan on March 04, 2016, 11:05:07 AM
>> The Kel-Tec I think would be good option, but only if your other option is throwing rocks.

Thanks man, I'm feeling the love.  sthumb
Title: Re: PCC in USPSA...Good idea or fail?
Post by: r.harvey on March 28, 2016, 11:11:15 AM
The provisional rules state the PCC must be shoulder fired. So if you take a shot without the stock to your shoulder are you bumped to open class?
Title: Re: PCC in USPSA...Good idea or fail?
Post by: praetorian97 on March 28, 2016, 11:30:18 AM
Depends on what they perceive the stock "as". As equipment, then a class bump would be appropriate?

As a purpose for safe gun handling, then a DQ would be the call?

We'd be happy if you just stayed on your feet for an entire match Harvey ;)
Title: Re: PCC in USPSA...Good idea or fail?
Post by: r.harvey on March 28, 2016, 12:34:14 PM
That is a lot to ask of me.
Title: Re: PCC in USPSA...Good idea or fail?
Post by: AF Guy Who Shoots on March 28, 2016, 12:48:10 PM
After seeing Rob in action at Ironman last year, he is as graceful as a drunk Russian ballerina.
Title: Re: PCC in USPSA...Good idea or fail?
Post by: fallin guy on March 28, 2016, 06:30:12 PM
IMG_4484.gif
Title: Re: PCC in USPSA...Good idea or fail?
Post by: EKuo on March 28, 2016, 07:42:49 PM
The provisional rules state the PCC must be shoulder fired. So if you take a shot without the stock to your shoulder are you bumped to open class?

I think that one is going to get cleared up in the next month or two.  I want to say NROI's intent is to require PCCs to have a legal stock and not have to worry about the ATF Pandora's box of the legality of the SigBrace, KAK Blade, or Thorsden cheek rest. 

Mike Foley posted a video demo-ing how he envisioned PCC being shot in a USPSA match with the typical leans around barricades or props.  He even demo'd shooting the PCC one handed without shouldering it (as if leaning hard around a barricade). 
Title: Re: PCC in USPSA...Good idea or fail?
Post by: praetorian97 on March 29, 2016, 11:21:29 AM
IMG_4484.gif

Yes Limited Vickers. Its time for Cleats again.