Author Topic: PCC in USPSA...Good idea or fail?  (Read 9989 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

PCC in USPSA...Good idea or fail?
« on: February 07, 2016, 09:39:51 AM »

Offline EKuo

  • Moderator
  • Shooter!
  • ***
  • Posts: 5660
  • Reputation: 120
  • Airgunner
There has been quite a bit of discussion in the last two months on various forums regarding adding Pistol Caliber Carbines as a USPSA provisional division to play alongside the seven other handgun divisions.  The discussions really took off when USPSA decided to approve PCC as one of the divisions in Steel Challenge, and it naturally progressed to talking about USPSA handgun matches.  Like most things these days it appears to be a fairly polarized topics with people ardently voicing their opinion for and against. 

As I understand the situation, there are a handful of clubs currently offering PCC at their regular USPSA matches.  The numbers of participants aren't huge, rather it seems like it's twosies and threesies here and there, or at best there may be enough to fill out a squad.  But it does seem to have much more interest than the Carry Optics division.

The proponents of adding PCC to USPSA are citing that it is a good fit at a USPSA handgun matches seeing as the pistol caliber out of a carbine is conducive to our paper and steel targets at the distances commonly seen at a USPSA match (unlike .223 ARs), PCC seems to be a red-headed step child with regard to 3-gun, and there isn't enough critical mass to host a PCC stand alone match.  Apparently there has been sufficient interest that the USPSA BoD discussed this at their January meeting and directed DNROI to develop some guidelines to cover equipment requirements and also evaluate where the current handgun rulebook would need to have some addendums added to cover PCC use.  The draft proposal should be available for member comment in March.  I anticipate it will cover things like:
-transport and condition of carbine between stages
-Start positions (i.e. Placement of hands prior to start signal, what if's for uprange starts)
-SHO/WHO shooting and how that translates to PCC
-an appendix covering equipment rules (i.e. Calibers, barrel length, mag size/restrictions if any, optics vs iron sights, etc.)

Those against PCC have voiced a number of concerns, most of which I hope can be addressed in the rules addendum, though some are philosophical in nature (which the rulebook may not be able to address).  I think the highlights of those concerns are:
-Rifles (which includes carbines) should not be allowed in a handgun match
-Concerns about safety
-Concern that stage design will need to be altered to favor PCCs
-Concern that it will take longer to shoot a match
-Concern that host clubs may take on liability if some of the competitors are not following state and NFA laws (somebody shoulders a Sig Brace or shoots a SBR without proper Form 1)
-Some clubs are already at capacity

There are legitimate concerns on both sides of the argument, though I am hopeful that DNROI will address the majority of them in their rules addendum, but we shall see. 

Here's my take:
1.  We will not change how we currently design stages to suit PCC anymore than we don't bias the stages towards any one particular division.  We won't make the shots harder just to suit PCC, nor will we dumb down some of the awkward shooting positions.  To me, that's part of the challenge and fun. 
2.  If/when we offer PCC as a division, it will be just like any other division.  Pick ONE when you register.  MD discretion if we allow you to register a second gun just like we do now.
3.  Competitor's responsibility to ensure compliance with all state and NFA laws, just like it is right now with pistols and at 3-gun matches. 
4.  We will comply with the equipment rules (whatever they are) when they come out.  Until then, buyer beware. 

All that having been said, curious as to how much interest we have locally for PCC as its own division?   Or what things do we need to be paying attention to? 
Hope is a lousy strategy, but sometimes it is good tactics. 

Plan B should not be Plan A twice as hard.

If you're happy and you know it, clap your... aw hell, never mind...

Re: PCC in USPSA...Good idea or fail?
« Reply #1 on: February 07, 2016, 12:24:30 PM »

Offline Nealio

  • Calls himself a Shooter..
  • ****
  • Posts: 1151
  • Reputation: 33
  • un-certified Tanfoglio Armorer
I think your assessment is correct; there really isn't a good place to shoot PCCs right now for competition.
But I agree the stages should just be stages without bias to any type of shooter ( well every revolver, but that's in the rules). I think if anyone plans to shoot PCC they need to understand what they are getting into just like everyone else does.
Powered by Bacon

TEAM EUROPEAN STEEL

USPSA A68937
My shooting vids

Re: PCC in USPSA...Good idea or fail?
« Reply #2 on: February 07, 2016, 06:19:53 PM »

Offline dsa

  • Guy that shoots
  • ***
  • Posts: 452
  • Reputation: 17
I think it sounds fun.  However, I think it has the potential to slow down a match if it gains momentum and more people start shooting PCC and want to shoot two divisions.

Re: PCC in USPSA...Good idea or fail?
« Reply #3 on: February 07, 2016, 06:46:59 PM »

Offline EKuo

  • Moderator
  • Shooter!
  • ***
  • Posts: 5660
  • Reputation: 120
  • Airgunner
I think it sounds fun.  However, I think it has the potential to slow down a match if it gains momentum and more people start shooting PCC and want to shoot two divisions.

Low turn out, may not be an issue.  Big turn out like we sometimes have... Probably not a good idea. 

We hardly ever have somebody wanting to shoot 2 divisions at a USPSA match right now.
Hope is a lousy strategy, but sometimes it is good tactics. 

Plan B should not be Plan A twice as hard.

If you're happy and you know it, clap your... aw hell, never mind...

Re: PCC in USPSA...Good idea or fail?
« Reply #4 on: February 07, 2016, 07:53:18 PM »

Offline AF Guy Who Shoots

  • Guy that shoots
  • ***
  • Posts: 317
  • Reputation: 14
This is something I would be interested in. As far as shooting 2 divisions, I think that would be a non issue. I would either pick pistol or PCC to shoot, but that is me. As far as stage design goes, design it for pistol and let the PCC guys adapt. I don't think it will be huge, but it does pick up a niche that currently doesn't really have a home.
Guy who Shoots 3 gun. Poorly.

Re: PCC in USPSA...Good idea or fail?
« Reply #5 on: February 07, 2016, 08:19:27 PM »

Offline fallin guy

  • Dreams about shooting
  • **
  • Posts: 224
  • Reputation: 1252
I don't think it will really increase attendance all that much. I think some night just decide to shoot pcc instead of pistol. What are the safety issues though? With encroaching housing being an issue, what if someone a.d.s one over the berm. As far as adding a division or more people shooting, I'm glad no one said no to rimfire at practice matches. Let it rip queso dip!

Re: PCC in USPSA...Good idea or fail?
« Reply #6 on: February 07, 2016, 08:54:22 PM »

Offline EKuo

  • Moderator
  • Shooter!
  • ***
  • Posts: 5660
  • Reputation: 120
  • Airgunner
Some of the safety concerns I've read online:

Handguns are holstered and are supposed to be empty/hammer down / and matches are supposed to be "cold range".  Since PCCs can't be holstered, the rules need to clarify what is considered the right condition to maintain the "cold range".  I suspect they'll take a lot of the rules from the USPSA multi-gun rulebook since those are already established.  I'm just speculating, but for example:  After the "If clear, hammer down" command you bag it, then the Range is Clear command can be given.  Another option being kicked around is insert a chamber flag once the RO has verified the gun is clear, and then you walk over to where your bag/case is and put it away.  You'll need to keep your muzzle pointed in a safe direction.  There has been quite a bit of discussion if a PCC with a chamber flag inserted can be considered a "dead stick" or if you need to be escorted to where ever your bag/case/kart is.

3-gun does a lot of staging of guns on a designated table or rack while shooters are waiting their turn.  This could be a method that is adopted. 

As far as other safety issues, some people are concerned about the 180, especially in tight quarters or awkward leans.  There could be some target presentations where the shooter needs to shoot one-handed and the longer length of a PCC may be harder to control (or small/weak people won't be able to do it).  So some have said that PCC will dumb down the stages and avoid these types of hard leans. 

Up range starts will need some figuring out.  With the handgun holstered it's not an issue if the shooter faces uprange provided they don't draw until they complete the turn.  For a PCC shooter, uprange with gun in hand is no Bueno.  So maybe the fix is to require the gun be on a table behind the shooter when facing uprange. But this will require an extra set of instructions in the WSB for the PCC shooters as well as maybe adding a table to the stage setup. 

On stages that start with hands on X's, where is the gun?  A lot of 3-gun stages have the rifle staged on a table or they will say muzzle of gun touches the X (instead of hands).  It's doable, but your typical "start hands on X's" stage will need a PCC-specific start instruction written into the WSB. 

USPSA has a rule that says the competitor should not touch the gun or ammo prior to the start.  For PCC, this may need an addendum to the rulebook exempting them from that (unless it's an unloaded gun start). 

Stuff like that... 

Hope is a lousy strategy, but sometimes it is good tactics. 

Plan B should not be Plan A twice as hard.

If you're happy and you know it, clap your... aw hell, never mind...

Re: PCC in USPSA...Good idea or fail?
« Reply #7 on: February 07, 2016, 09:02:12 PM »

Offline r.harvey

  • Dreams about shooting
  • **
  • Posts: 168
  • Reputation: 8
I would go for it. But I would also want to shoot my pistol.
Not cool enough to shoot a 2011

Re: PCC in USPSA...Good idea or fail?
« Reply #8 on: February 07, 2016, 10:26:32 PM »

Offline praetorian97

  • Wannabe shooter.....
  • *****
  • Posts: 3177
  • Reputation: 77
My initial thought is that PCC shooters will want to squad up with other PCC shooters.

Allowing a squad to have 3-4 PCC guys shooting dual divisions will slow a normal squad down because you just added 3-4 more shooters without actually 3-4 more helpers. IE a squad of 10 will have to shoot the stage 13-14 times. A guy shooting dual divisions will be more distracted getting ready and cleaning up shooting each stage twice and in turn have less time to tape/reset.

Not a catastrophe by any means but some food for thought for PCC. I know atleast 5 guys locally that would shoot PCC.
« Last Edit: February 08, 2016, 08:01:27 AM by praetorian97 »
Pew Pew Pew

Re: PCC in USPSA...Good idea or fail?
« Reply #9 on: February 08, 2016, 08:57:33 AM »

Offline motosapiens

  • Guy that shoots
  • ***
  • Posts: 743
  • Reputation: 44
My initial thought is that PCC shooters will want to squad up with other PCC shooters.

Allowing a squad to have 3-4 PCC guys shooting dual divisions will slow a normal squad down because you just added 3-4 more shooters without actually 3-4 more helpers. IE a squad of 10 will have to shoot the stage 13-14 times. A guy shooting dual divisions will be more distracted getting ready and cleaning up shooting each stage twice and in turn have less time to tape/reset.

Not a catastrophe by any means but some food for thought for PCC. I know atleast 5 guys locally that would shoot PCC.

excellent points. if you shoot 2 divisions, you are essentially slacking, not pullling your weight, not doing your share, being lazy, and making others do your work for you.

if you can get 10-12 folks that want to shoot 2 divisions, they can just run the match again after the main match is done, and then they can tear down. I might take advantage of that when time allows, but I would not be interested in shooting 2 divisions at the same time because I don't think it is fair to the other shooters.
A75553

Re: PCC in USPSA...Good idea or fail?
« Reply #10 on: February 08, 2016, 09:47:39 AM »

Offline r.harvey

  • Dreams about shooting
  • **
  • Posts: 168
  • Reputation: 8
  are essentially slacking, not pullling your weight, not doing your share, being lazy, and making others do your work for you.


Sounds like me. So like I said I'm going for it.
Not cool enough to shoot a 2011

Re: PCC in USPSA...Good idea or fail?
« Reply #11 on: February 08, 2016, 11:05:04 AM »

Offline Talionis

  • Guy that shoots
  • ***
  • Posts: 275
  • Reputation: 12
I'm more excited about PCC than I have been about any other division outside Production. 3 gun isn't interesting to me because shotgun, and PCC will provide a venue to work on my rifle skills and pretend I'm an 80's action hero.

I have no plans to shoot both PCC and handgun at the same match, and would not be in favor of it. I quit shooting Steel Challenge last summer in large part because of the number of people shooting multiple guns. For me, it is extremely frustrating to queue up at a stage with 3 or 4 people at it and discover I'm 9 down the list. I may give SC another try this summer because it can be fun, and I need to get better at it, but I'd be lying if I said I was happy with multiple gun shooters going all at once for each stage. A group of dudes shooting an after match with their PCC's would be a decent way to handle people wanting to shoot multiple guns, though really that shouldn't be just limited to PCC I guess, if people want to shoot more guns and will commit to teardown, rock on.

It seems like most of the issues other than "rifles GTFO of my pistol match" can be addressed by changing/adding some default rules in the rulebook as it relates to PCC. I don't think we would even need to really change WSB's for the most part, PCC gets a default start for 'up-range', one for surrender, etc. It doesn't need to be complicated, nor does it need to affect how we run matches. I'm not a fan of the "dead stick" idea for rifles because I don't want to be swept by any gun ever, whether loaded or not. Nor do I want the population of our clubs dwindling because of consequences from Ultimo;)

Re: PCC in USPSA...Good idea or fail?
« Reply #12 on: February 08, 2016, 12:05:53 PM »

Offline junkie

  • Guy that shoots
  • ***
  • Posts: 432
  • Reputation: 13
I don't like the idea. It just doesn't seem like a uspsa type of division. It might however have more people than revo.
I am sure that the safety and logistics we can figure out.
Scott Garrigus

Re: PCC in USPSA...Good idea or fail?
« Reply #13 on: February 11, 2016, 10:39:35 PM »

Offline EKuo

  • Moderator
  • Shooter!
  • ***
  • Posts: 5660
  • Reputation: 120
  • Airgunner
Hope is a lousy strategy, but sometimes it is good tactics. 

Plan B should not be Plan A twice as hard.

If you're happy and you know it, clap your... aw hell, never mind...

Re: PCC in USPSA...Good idea or fail?
« Reply #14 on: February 14, 2016, 07:23:15 PM »

Offline carharttfarmer

  • Guy that shoots
  • ***
  • Posts: 733
  • Reputation: 66
  • superheroes don't always wear tights
I'm more excited about PCC than I have been about any other division outside Production. 3 gun isn't interesting to me because shotgun, and PCC will provide a venue to work on my rifle skills and pretend I'm an 80's action hero.



Just curious why no interest because shotgun? I mean you being a lowcap lifer and liking low capacity/reloads/stage breakdown shotgun seems to be the crossover to that skill set.

And camo long hair spraying bullets and pretending to be awesome is climate changes domain. So be careful not to steal his look when you play action hero he's pretty sensitive about stuff like that.


On the upside if what I read on enos is true once the rules come out other than a few holdouts chasing hawktech wins we'll all be living in a gun twirling knee sweeping single division utopia   ;) 
,.?';''() diy punctuation insert as needed


Practice is a crutch for the talentless

Re: PCC in USPSA...Good idea or fail?
« Reply #15 on: February 14, 2016, 08:14:10 PM »

Offline Talionis

  • Guy that shoots
  • ***
  • Posts: 275
  • Reputation: 12

Just curious why no interest because shotgun? I mean you being a lowcap lifer and liking low capacity/reloads/stage breakdown shotgun seems to be the crossover to that skill set.

And camo long hair spraying bullets and pretending to be awesome is climate changes domain. So be careful not to steal his look when you play action hero he's pretty sensitive about stuff like that.

I like shooting shotguns. At clay birdies flying through the air. I do not like reloading shotguns, it takes ages, and isn't fun. And also makes you look like a douche when you post the latest double/quad/octo load technique to the interwebs. There are plenty of dudes that would shoot 3gun a lot more if there were only two guns, myself included.

Climate Change and I are both lawyers, so there is a certain level of professional courtesy. I don't think he'll mind me playing Sylvester Stallone to his Chuck Norris.

Re: PCC in USPSA...Good idea or fail?
« Reply #16 on: February 14, 2016, 08:59:49 PM »

Offline carharttfarmer

  • Guy that shoots
  • ***
  • Posts: 733
  • Reputation: 66
  • superheroes don't always wear tights
I like shooting shotguns. At clay birdies flying through the air. I do not like reloading shotguns, it takes ages, and isn't fun. And also makes you look like a douche when you post the latest double/quad/octo load technique to the interwebs. There are plenty of dudes that would shoot 3gun a lot more if there were only two guns, myself included.

Climate Change and I are both lawyers, so there is a certain level of professional courtesy. I don't think he'll mind me playing Sylvester Stallone to his Chuck Norris.


Kind of applies to all shooting gear interwebs posts regardless of sport loaders ,holsters ,belts , pouches etc. Nobody's winning cuz their new shit does the same thing in a different color. But I guess its better than selfies or leg room pics 
,.?';''() diy punctuation insert as needed


Practice is a crutch for the talentless

Re: PCC in USPSA...Good idea or fail?
« Reply #17 on: February 14, 2016, 09:12:19 PM »

Offline Roop

  • Guy that shoots
  • ***
  • Posts: 472
  • Reputation: 23
  • Chuck Norris? Never heard of her.

Kind of applies to all shooting gear interwebs posts regardless of sport loaders ,holsters ,belts , pouches etc. Nobody's winning cuz their new shit does the same thing in a different color. But I guess its better than selfies or leg room pics
that gets a rep!

Re: PCC in USPSA...Good idea or fail?
« Reply #18 on: February 14, 2016, 11:50:41 PM »

Offline Talionis

  • Guy that shoots
  • ***
  • Posts: 275
  • Reputation: 12

Kind of applies to all shooting gear interwebs posts regardless of sport loaders ,holsters ,belts , pouches etc. Nobody's winning cuz their new shit does the same thing in a different color. But I guess its better than selfies or leg room pics

No argument here:) Gear is just a matter of finding what gets in the way least and rolling on. It is better than selfies or leg room (wtf is that?) pics though.


Re: PCC in USPSA...Good idea or fail?
« Reply #19 on: February 15, 2016, 12:55:01 PM »

Offline carharttfarmer

  • Guy that shoots
  • ***
  • Posts: 733
  • Reputation: 66
  • superheroes don't always wear tights
No argument here:) Gear is just a matter of finding what gets in the way least and rolling on. It is better than selfies or leg room (wtf is that?) pics though.


A facebook fad amongst shooter/industry people posting pics of the leg room or lack there of when traveling by air.  Ranks slightly more annoying than look how I ruined bacon posts and slightly less than look I ran/exercised or did crossfit posts . 
,.?';''() diy punctuation insert as needed


Practice is a crutch for the talentless