Author Topic: PCC in USPSA...Good idea or fail?  (Read 10261 times)

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Re: PCC in USPSA...Good idea or fail?
« Reply #60 on: February 19, 2016, 01:35:40 PM »

Offline carharttfarmer

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After you had to send True into the gas station to help me find my out after you guys ditched me, I've been carrying my GPS everywhere I go.  I hit the "go home" button and I'm in pretty good shape.


Don't worry we all chipped in and bought a invisible leash for you. Should quickly put a stop to your wandering off.
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Re: PCC in USPSA...Good idea or fail?
« Reply #61 on: February 22, 2016, 09:32:54 AM »

Offline praetorian97

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Now that USPSA shooters are shooting PCC guns, I cant make fun of the 3 gunners over compensating with their 6 inch pistols.
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Re: PCC in USPSA...Good idea or fail?
« Reply #62 on: February 22, 2016, 10:08:39 AM »

Offline Talionis

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You can still make fun of them not aiming.

Re: PCC in USPSA...Good idea or fail?
« Reply #63 on: February 22, 2016, 10:13:27 AM »

Offline motosapiens

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You can still make fun of them not aiming.

Or just design a whole match that doesn't have 2 open targets next to each other (might not even have had 2 open targets period). that'll teach those non-aiming m-f-ers.
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Re: PCC in USPSA...Good idea or fail?
« Reply #64 on: February 22, 2016, 10:37:05 AM »

Offline Cml

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Farmer, I'm pretty sure they are talking about you

Re: PCC in USPSA...Good idea or fail?
« Reply #65 on: February 22, 2016, 10:45:18 AM »

Offline praetorian97

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Farmer, I'm pretty sure they are talking about you

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Re: PCC in USPSA...Good idea or fail?
« Reply #66 on: February 22, 2016, 12:07:48 PM »

Offline Nealio

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Or just design a whole match that doesn't have 2 open targets next to each other (might not even have had 2 open targets period). that'll teach those non-aiming m-f-ers.

Now that's the kind of match I would show up for.
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Re: PCC in USPSA...Good idea or fail?
« Reply #67 on: February 22, 2016, 01:21:23 PM »

Offline carharttfarmer

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Or just design a whole match that doesn't have 2 open targets next to each other (might not even have had 2 open targets period). that'll teach those non-aiming m-f-ers.

No shoots sweet twice the round count
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Re: PCC in USPSA...Good idea or fail?
« Reply #68 on: February 22, 2016, 01:24:38 PM »

Offline carharttfarmer

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Now that's the kind of match I would talk about showing up for.
Fify
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Re: PCC in USPSA...Good idea or fail?
« Reply #69 on: February 22, 2016, 01:29:17 PM »

Offline praetorian97

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Re: PCC in USPSA...Good idea or fail?
« Reply #70 on: February 23, 2016, 07:30:21 AM »

Offline KennyP

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My concern is this: when do we cap out a maximum amount of divisions so that we can ultimately keep the sport competitive and interesting? PCC does not appeal to me, but I've always preferred to shoot pistol over rifle even before I ever competed, so that should be no surprise. I'm sure that some very simple rules can be added to PCC only and the division can be made safe and fair without having to change the match experience for the pistol guys. Really my only concern is that at this current pace, we'll have 20 divisions by 2018, and then the sport will suffer greatly IMO. Since this is competitive shooting, the fun part is the competition itself, and with tons of divisions each talent pool is watered down.
« Last Edit: February 23, 2016, 07:32:03 AM by KennyP »

Re: PCC in USPSA...Good idea or fail?
« Reply #71 on: February 23, 2016, 12:59:46 PM »

Offline Nealio

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Re: PCC in USPSA...Good idea or fail?
« Reply #72 on: February 26, 2016, 01:02:22 PM »

Offline blkntan

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So maybe I missed it in this thread, but whats the thought on which PCC?
Are we talking like Beretta CX4?  H&K MP5 is always a classic I assume.  I'm not one of the cool kids now, so would showing up with a kel tec sub 2000 mean I'd never eat lunch at the cool table?

Re: PCC in USPSA...Good idea or fail?
« Reply #73 on: February 26, 2016, 03:01:08 PM »

Offline Talionis

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MP5 if you're a baller. Right now they are one of the pricier options, although that may not continue to be the case;) Most people interested will build or buy an AR15 variant in 9mm. I think there are a lot of excellent options out there, so I would expect to see CZ Scorpion Evo's, SIG MPX's, Beretta Battle Star Galactica guns, Just Right Carbines, Kel Tec's, and even the hi-point carbines do a decent job.

While I expect the AR variants to be the most popular, I am not sure they will be the *best* option. They are simple blowback guns, and have a lot of reciprocating bolt mass to deal with. I think there might be a battle on the top end of the spectrum between the Sig and the HK for top dog title, but we shall see.

Re: PCC in USPSA...Good idea or fail?
« Reply #74 on: February 26, 2016, 09:38:12 PM »

Offline idHawk

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MP5 if you're a baller. Right now they are one of the pricier options, although that may not continue to be the case;) Most people interested will build or buy an AR15 variant in 9mm. I think there are a lot of excellent options out there, so I would expect to see CZ Scorpion Evo's, SIG MPX's, Beretta Battle Star Galactica guns, Just Right Carbines, Kel Tec's, and even the hi-point carbines do a decent job.

While I expect the AR variants to be the most popular, I am not sure they will be the *best* option. They are simple blowback guns, and have a lot of reciprocating bolt mass to deal with. I think there might be a battle on the top end of the spectrum between the Sig and the HK for top dog title, but we shall see.

I have one of the AR Variants right now, but I really want to see what the CZ Scorpion and the Sig MPX can bring to the table.   Doing a SBR conversion on the MPX is very tempting at this point.  Then again, actually showing up to a match to shoot ANY gun would be nice at this point!

Re: PCC in USPSA...Good idea or fail?
« Reply #75 on: February 26, 2016, 10:39:36 PM »

Offline EKuo

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My concern is this: when do we cap out a maximum amount of divisions so that we can ultimately keep the sport competitive and interesting? PCC does not appeal to me, but I've always preferred to shoot pistol over rifle even before I ever competed, so that should be no surprise. I'm sure that some very simple rules can be added to PCC only and the division can be made safe and fair without having to change the match experience for the pistol guys. Really my only concern is that at this current pace, we'll have 20 divisions by 2018, and then the sport will suffer greatly IMO. Since this is competitive shooting, the fun part is the competition itself, and with tons of divisions each talent pool is watered down.

I think when we get to about 21 or 22 divisions we ought to be about there...   chain
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Re: PCC in USPSA...Good idea or fail?
« Reply #76 on: March 01, 2016, 02:20:41 PM »

Offline Talionis

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Provisional rules: http://www.uspsa.org/forums/index.php?/topic/1618-pistol-caliber-carbine-appendix-d8-provisional-comments/

Breakdown:
No minimum barrel length.
Minor scoring, max 1600fps, approved calibers are 9mm, 357Sig, .40, 10mm, .45.
No mag capacity limit.
Must be shoulder fired, no Sig Braces allowed.
Slings OK.
Optics OK.
Breaks OK.
Suppressors NOT OK.
Start position: "As defined in WSB; muzzle points downrange, safety on and fingers outside trigger guard in all start positions."
Handling requirements: "un-cased/unbagged, slung, or hand carried firearms
If un-bagged, must be carried with the muzzle vertical, chamber flag installed. May not move from the vertical position until the Make Ready command is given, violations will be subject to Unsafe Gun Handling disqualification".
Handling requirements"cased/bagged firearms (note that carbine must be chamber flagged in all instances)
 If cased/bagged, may be carried in any orientation, may not be un-bagged until the Make Ready command is given; muzzle must be pointed downrange at Make Ready."


Re: PCC in USPSA...Good idea or fail?
« Reply #77 on: March 01, 2016, 07:47:03 PM »

Offline EKuo

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I think USPS is making the right call with regard to not allowing the Sig Brace or iterations thereof.  It pretty much relegates us to either 16" carbines or Form 1 SBRs -and not a poorman's SBR that has been 'pistolized' to avoid all the controversy surrounding "shouldering" a pistol.  Burden is on the shooter to know and bring a legal carbine and keeps the org/host club/MD/RO out of Pandora's box.

I suspect (or hope) the wording about "must be fired from the shoulder" may be changed to "must be able to be fired from the shoulder" to allow for the hard leans that may require a one-handed shot like El Prez showed us in his demo video. 

All in all, I think DNROI gave this some good thought.  WSBs will have to describe start position for the uprange/turn/draw stages, or those that require hands on X's.  For example, a WSB that requires uprange start, PCC'ers can either be gun start on table or just have the PCC'ers start facing downrange. 

Hands on X's could be one hand to hold the PCC and the other hand on X, or do another table start for the PCC. 

I think this is a good start.  Looking forward to trying it out. 
Hope is a lousy strategy, but sometimes it is good tactics. 

Plan B should not be Plan A twice as hard.

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Re: PCC in USPSA...Good idea or fail?
« Reply #78 on: March 01, 2016, 09:56:50 PM »

Offline Nealio

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MP5 if you're a baller. Right now they are one of the pricier options, although that may not continue to be the case;) Most people interested will build or buy an AR15 variant in 9mm. I think there are a lot of excellent options out there, so I would expect to see CZ Scorpion Evo's, SIG MPX's, Beretta Battle Star Galactica guns, Just Right Carbines, Kel Tec's, and even the hi-point carbines do a decent job.

While I expect the AR variants to be the most popular, I am not sure they will be the *best* option. They are simple blowback guns, and have a lot of reciprocating bolt mass to deal with. I think there might be a battle on the top end of the spectrum between the Sig and the HK for top dog title, but we shall see.

The High Point is actually one of the more accurate and reliable carbines out there, but it takes single stack 9mm mags, so capacity is an issue. 
The Just Right carbine was a real let down for me. It needed to be cleaned often, and to clean it you had to take the buffer tube off and dissemble the whole gun. Which sucks.
The JP GMR13 carbine is an AR style carbine, and it is awesome. I can't say enough good things about it. Shoots about 1.5 MOA @ 100y with plated bullets (and a red dot), takes Glock mags, and it runs great. Let me reiterate that mine has ran flawlessly.  Even without me lubing or cleaning it, it just runs.
The CX4 is another one I looked at, but I have not shot. I would expect that to be a good option without breaking the bank.
The Kel-Tec I think would be good option, but only if your other option is throwing rocks.
The Sig and the HK I would guess are pretty good as well, but if they are more than the JP, then honestly I think the JP would be better overall.

The downside to some of the carbines is that they have more recoil than my .223/5.56 ARs due to the small gas volume not working the brake very well. Mine have all had a "thud" feeling when you shoot them. I don't know if the Sig and HK would be better in this aspect, but most of the blowback models will feel similar.

If any of guys want to try out the JP, feel free to contact me.

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Re: PCC in USPSA...Good idea or fail?
« Reply #79 on: March 01, 2016, 11:41:33 PM »

Offline Talionis

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The High Point is actually one of the more accurate and reliable carbines out there, but it takes single stack 9mm mags, so capacity is an issue. 
The Just Right carbine was a real let down for me. It needed to be cleaned often, and to clean it you had to take the buffer tube off and dissemble the whole gun. Which sucks.
The JP GMR13 carbine is an AR style carbine, and it is awesome. I can't say enough good things about it. Shoots about 1.5 MOA @ 100y with plated bullets (and a red dot), takes Glock mags, and it runs great. Let me reiterate that mine has ran flawlessly.  Even without me lubing or cleaning it, it just runs.
The CX4 is another one I looked at, but I have not shot. I would expect that to be a good option without breaking the bank.
The Kel-Tec I think would be good option, but only if your other option is throwing rocks.
The Sig and the HK I would guess are pretty good as well, but if they are more than the JP, then honestly I think the JP would be better overall.

The downside to some of the carbines is that they have more recoil than my .223/5.56 ARs due to the small gas volume not working the brake very well. Mine have all had a "thud" feeling when you shoot them. I don't know if the Sig and HK would be better in this aspect, but most of the blowback models will feel similar.

If any of guys want to try out the JP, feel free to contact me.

Nealio's $.02

Good info from someone who's actually shot a few of these. I totally forgot the Hi-point uses single stack mags. That rules it out for anything but novelty.

I think the JP will be the 2011 of PCC for the most part, with the caveat that both the Sig and HK do not use straight gas blowback, and may have an edge when it comes to recoil characteristics. I won't be able to test the MP5 vs. 9mm AR question until later on this year.

Dan introduced me to the X-mag 50 round drum for Colt SMG magazines today. That was dirty pool. I think I might need one.