Author Topic: Setting up an AR type PCC for USPSA  (Read 5361 times)

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Re: Setting up an AR type PCC for USPSA
« Reply #20 on: May 01, 2016, 10:40:36 AM »

Offline EKuo

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Shot my PCC in two matches so far: ISPS Hi-cap and Magic Valley's 2-gun.  At the hi-cap match I had two jams, one was a double feed, not sure on the other one.  Cleaned and lubed, shot it some more and hasn't happened since.  At the MV 2-gun match yesterday it ran fine and served as backup gun for a couple dudes after somebody's Aimpoint fell off...

Between the 2 matches I also chrono'd my rounds thru the PCC to see what kind of velocity I was getting. Turns out my typical minor 130 PF ammo out of a 5" gun was just under 9-major PF when shot from the 16" PCC.  So I toned that load down to where it's doing about 1050 fps from the PCC for about 131 PF.  I like the new load.  So did Big D and Irwin Esq when they tried it.  Actually the look on Irwin Esq's face was 1 part disgust, 2 parts damnIneedtodothattoo.   

I have noticed how quiet gun this gun is.  I need some sort of muzzle device that is louder so the shot timer Has an easier time picking up the shots.  Currently just have a A2 bored out to 9mm. 

Hope is a lousy strategy, but sometimes it is good tactics. 

Plan B should not be Plan A twice as hard.

If you're happy and you know it, clap your... aw hell, never mind...

Re: Setting up an AR type PCC for USPSA
« Reply #21 on: May 01, 2016, 11:40:49 AM »

Offline Talionis

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Serves me right for not confirming the lock on my optic mount was tight. I will cling to the two stage wins I had without a loose optic as the loser's prize.

Yes, your Extremely Minor load for PCC was disgusting, at least out of Dan's gun with all the JP hotness. Part of the attraction of PCC for me is just being able to run the same ammo I always use for learning to run a carbine, so I'm not quite ready to jump into the whole two separate loads for 9mm thing just yet. But I am now ready to make fun of everyone that does. That whole issue will be moot for me soon enough when I'm running an MP5 with same length barrel as my prod gun though.

Re: Setting up an AR type PCC for USPSA
« Reply #22 on: May 01, 2016, 11:42:23 AM »

Offline Talionis

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I have noticed how quiet gun this gun is.  I need some sort of muzzle device that is louder so the shot timer Has an easier time picking up the shots.  Currently just have a A2 bored out to 9mm.

From a bystander's perspective, I thought it was really interesting that your gun/load combo was quieter to the ear than the suppressed MPX SBR. I'm sure part of that has to do with the supersonic snap of the factory ammo he was running though.

Re: Setting up an AR type PCC for USPSA
« Reply #23 on: May 01, 2016, 12:32:35 PM »

Offline EKuo

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Yes, your Extremely Minor load for PCC was disgusting, at least out of Dan's gun with all the JP hotness.

 That whole issue will be moot for me soon enough when I'm running an MP5 with same length barrel as my prod gun though.

Dan and I compared my gun to his JP using my ammo.  Recoil between the two felt about the same, or not enough to make me drop coin on a JP silent captured spring (just yet). 

Is it's de rigueur to pop the MP5's charging handle with the bottom of your fist right out of the gate, or do you need to be indoctrinated by Hans Gruber first? 
Hope is a lousy strategy, but sometimes it is good tactics. 

Plan B should not be Plan A twice as hard.

If you're happy and you know it, clap your... aw hell, never mind...

Re: Setting up an AR type PCC for USPSA
« Reply #24 on: May 02, 2016, 02:44:29 PM »

Offline Jaggy13

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Dan and I compared my gun to his JP using my ammo.  Recoil between the two felt about the same, or not enough to make me drop coin on a JP silent captured spring (just yet)

What bolt are you using?
I'm speccing a build out now and was going to use a RRA or JP bolt to keep the silent capture spring an option.
Did you shoot your Ammo in D's carbine too to compare?

Also, I'm really on the fence about just pinning and welding a 14.5 to have a paperless carbine.
Do you think shorter is really needed?
I'd like to be an optimist.
I just don't think it would work out.

Re: Setting up an AR type PCC for USPSA
« Reply #25 on: May 02, 2016, 08:17:07 PM »

Offline EKuo

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CMMG bolt.  I think it has a removable weight in the back held on by a roll pin that can be removed to work with the JP SCS.  The bolt is ramped so I don't need a 9mm specific hammer.

We shot my ammo in Dan's gun as well as mine, and did not discern enough difference to make me want to spring for the JP buffer system especially with the powder puff loads I'm using. 

It remains to be seen, but a shorty SBR (5-10" bbl) probably would make a difference both from a tight quarters and balance stand point, but that would involve paperwork and giving Uncle Sugar $200.  Plus extra paperwork to take it to an out-of-state match.  Doable, just depends on what kind of hoops you want to jump thru.  Not sure about 3 Gun Nation, but USPSA rules say the PCC has to have a real stock, and Sig Braces and the like are specifically prohibited. 

So that means either a 16.1" bbl or a Form 1 SBR. 



 
Hope is a lousy strategy, but sometimes it is good tactics. 

Plan B should not be Plan A twice as hard.

If you're happy and you know it, clap your... aw hell, never mind...

Re: Setting up an AR type PCC for USPSA
« Reply #26 on: May 02, 2016, 09:18:07 PM »

Offline EKuo

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Hope is a lousy strategy, but sometimes it is good tactics. 

Plan B should not be Plan A twice as hard.

If you're happy and you know it, clap your... aw hell, never mind...

Re: Setting up an AR type PCC for USPSA
« Reply #27 on: May 03, 2016, 12:22:32 PM »

Offline Mully383

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I have noticed how quiet gun this gun is.  I need some sort of muzzle device that is louder so the shot timer Has an easier time picking up the shots.  Currently just have a A2 bored out to 9mm.
I've seen this more then a few times now with pcc. I think a break should almost be required for matches. At steel last night we couldn't get a pcc to pick up on the timer at all. Though a different timer would pick it up. I assume that it could of been resolved by adjusting the timer sensitivity but I would recommend everyone to just get a break and be confident your not gonna be reshooting and adjusting timers all day

Re: Setting up an AR type PCC for USPSA
« Reply #28 on: May 05, 2016, 01:22:04 PM »

Offline Talionis

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I've seen this more then a few times now with pcc. I think a break should almost be required for matches. At steel last night we couldn't get a pcc to pick up on the timer at all. Though a different timer would pick it up. I assume that it could of been resolved by adjusting the timer sensitivity but I would recommend everyone to just get a break and be confident your not gonna be reshooting and adjusting timers all day

I've found that it's not really an issue once people figure out that they are best served by holding the timer fairly near the ejection port. Works with .22's, suppressed guns, etc.

Re: Setting up an AR type PCC for USPSA
« Reply #29 on: May 05, 2016, 02:14:01 PM »

Offline Nealio

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I've found that it's not really an issue once people figure out that they are best served by holding the timer fairly near the ejection port. Works with .22's, suppressed guns, etc.

I think the timer only picked up 4 shots on some of your runs last night.. ;)
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Re: Setting up an AR type PCC for USPSA
« Reply #30 on: May 05, 2016, 02:14:42 PM »

Offline Mully383

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I thought it needed to be closer to the business end but if that's true that seems like it would work fine for steel challenge but still be difficult for uspsa at certain times especially with those fast movers

Re: Setting up an AR type PCC for USPSA
« Reply #31 on: May 27, 2016, 12:43:20 PM »

Offline Jaggy13

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Finally got mine put together. But I don't remember where I saw when it would be allowed at local matches.

I'm running the RRA adapter and buffer, flat wire recoil spring no spacer. And ramped CMMG bolt with hyper fire 24c trigger.

Everything seems great. Just a couple minor feeding issues.
I'd like to be an optimist.
I just don't think it would work out.

Re: Setting up an AR type PCC for USPSA
« Reply #32 on: May 27, 2016, 11:29:26 PM »

Offline EKuo

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Finally got mine put together. But I don't remember where I saw when it would be allowed at local matches.


It is already approved provisionally for Steel Challenge, and Practiscore's latest version is supposed to support it for upload to SCSA's website.  For USPSA, it will become a provisional division in July (along with another Practiscore update).  Once that happens we'll start offering PCC for USPSA matches.  We did a beta test back in April and all seemed copacetic. 
Hope is a lousy strategy, but sometimes it is good tactics. 

Plan B should not be Plan A twice as hard.

If you're happy and you know it, clap your... aw hell, never mind...

Re: Setting up an AR type PCC for USPSA
« Reply #33 on: May 28, 2016, 05:28:52 PM »

Offline Oregon Shooter

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Is it correct that these are not SBR?  Thanks

Re: Setting up an AR type PCC for USPSA
« Reply #34 on: May 28, 2016, 11:41:09 PM »

Offline EKuo

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Is it correct that these are not SBR?  Thanks

SBRs are allowed.  Onus is on the shooter to comply with all state and fed laws of ownership. 

Sig Braces and its ilk are specifically not allowed in USPSA and Steel Challenge. 
Hope is a lousy strategy, but sometimes it is good tactics. 

Plan B should not be Plan A twice as hard.

If you're happy and you know it, clap your... aw hell, never mind...

Re: Setting up an AR type PCC for USPSA
« Reply #35 on: August 10, 2016, 05:34:36 PM »

Offline avking

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Hey Evans, you always seem to have your stuff together when it comes to your gear and guns. So, it seems like your a good point of reference if wanting to build a 9mm PCC. I have a Sig MPX and just waiting for the stamp to come back before I can take it to a match. Would you be willing to share your build list for the 9mm PCC you built? Also, any updates to how it has been running since you last posted? I'd like to build a 16" 9mm PCC I can run until my stamp comes back.

The house is for sale and we will be moving to town, we hope before winter sets in. So, I am hoping to be able to make the weekend matches again, now that it won't be an over 1.5h drive each way.

Re: Setting up an AR type PCC for USPSA
« Reply #36 on: August 13, 2016, 12:06:14 PM »

Offline EKuo

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Sure:

Quarter Circle 10 9mm lower. I chose to go with Colt SMG mags but they also make a lower dedicated to Glock mags. 
Basic parts kit
Basic buffer extension tube
Spikes ST-X 9mm buffer.  It's long enough that you shouldn't need a spacer or stack of quarters.  It also weighs about 8 oz to help tame the heavy bolt going back and forth.
Trigger of choice. If you get a "ramped" bolt you can run just about any hammer.  If you get an unramped bolt you are limited to certain hammers.

Generic upper.  Mine does not have the bolt forward assist
Basic 16" bbl I got from Dan at HawkTech
A2 bird cage FH that we bored out to 9mm
Generic FF hand guard 
CMMG bolt (ramped)

That's about it.  Main thing to be aware of with 9mm ARs is finding the right buffer and buffer spring to work with the bolt you have.  Some guys like the X-power Wolff buffer spring, Dan has some flat wire springs that also work pretty good, some guys are using AR-10 buffer springs.  Just got to do some experimenting with buffer weight, length, and load to get the recoil to where you want it.  What worked for me was a heavy buffer (Spikes) and a standard M4 carbine buffer spring, paired with the CMMG bolt.  Then I worked up a 9mm minor load that was about 135 PF out of the 16" barrel.  My basic pistol 9mm minor load was doing something like 145-150 PF out of the 16" AR barrel so I dummied it down to the current powder puff load it is to reduce the amount of muzzle dipping when the heavy bolt slams forward back into battery. 
Hope is a lousy strategy, but sometimes it is good tactics. 

Plan B should not be Plan A twice as hard.

If you're happy and you know it, clap your... aw hell, never mind...